I understand that people like their anon characters to remain anon, but I had an idea. Since packs are based on player count and not character count, would it be possible to add a player count to the statistics page? It could be based on email or something (since I assume players use the same email account to make their characters). It wouldn't say who the players were, just the number. So like, we have a number for adult characters and pup characters and then the total for the entire pack. So, next to the character total, you could add a player total. I think this is important so that people can see what pack has what player numbers and it's easier to see who might need a boost in numbers if you're looking for a pack to join or it makes it easier for PMs to see if they need to advertise their pack or something if the numbers are dipping. Since some people have multiple characters in the same pack, the character number can be decieving for how well the pack is actually doing in terms of player count.
I don't know if it would be feasible or possible but I'm just putting it out there!
I'll leave the logistics of coding to the coding experts, but can weigh in about anonymity on WOLF. If players want to be anonymous from other players, they should be able to - without being publicly outed. Pack player counts would, in effect, point out that someone there was anonymous.. which I do think defeats the purpose total anonymity since it advertises there is an anonymous person in the roster. I'm a big proponent for anonymity if players want to employ it and don't know if having a unique player count would be fair to those who opt to be anonymous.
Since the main concern in your thread seems to be legitimizing the actual player count in a pack roster, I can tell you what I do when I check packs - which hopefully might show why that step may not be necessary. When I do the weekly pack counts to make sure all packs have the minimum individual players, I do factor into consideration any anonymous characters. There isn't really such thing as total anonymity from the CMs. CMs can see IPs and do see when players are using IP scramblers... so when there are anonymous accounts in a pack, they are not considered a unique member if they already have another character in the pack.
I haven't personally witnessed players using anonymity to get around the minimum player count for packs. Most times it appears players use it to step outside their comfort zone and/or have a chance to RP with people they wouldn't usually. ^^
@Indra - I think I understand what you're saying about a player count advertising that there's an anonymous person in the ranks, but at the same time, anonymous characters are
already obvious to spot because they don't have an OOC name attached to their account and/or it's possibly just a different name that someone made up for that specific character. If that makes any sense. So I don't see how having a player count would make it somehow worse/more obvious than that.
I also don't see why it would be that much of a big deal. When a pack is being created, the person in charge needs a player (not character) count to be able to become a full pack, and people often have the list of all of the players for the potential pack so they can keep all the numbers in the same place. So why can't we see the player number after the pack is set up? We don't have to see their names, just the number.
I hope I'm not sounding rude or something, btw. >.<
You're not sounding rude. There's a fair bit of anonymous characters and I think their right to be anonymous is important. Not all toons without OOC names are anonymous, either. I am a good example of that: I don't think half of my characters have my OOC name in them.. it's not something I bother to fill out most of the time.
I think that pointing out that there are anonymous players in a pack would make it more obvious that one character is played anonymously. Most times people wouldn't even realize that they're playing with an anonymous toon, because either the writing is different and/or the OOC name is different, too. I'm for protecting those that want anonymity, and don't think the individual number per pack would be important to anyone except CMs counting for pack minimums.. I could see it abused as another way to out people that are trying to play anonymously. I'm curious to see what other people think, though!
I said some stuff in Discord, and I'll say it here again:
I'm a big proponent of the ability to play anonymously. Sure, the CMs get to see your IP for admin purposes. That's fine. But beyond that, no one should have to disclose their OOC identity.
How does this tie in to player count? I don't think it is really vital to anyone other than CMs to know that count. As a PM, I have a pretty good sense of what players play who in my packs. That being said, if I did end up having two wolves played by the same person, but one was anon, and my pack fell below threshold, the CMs would let me know. It would be disappointing to not have the exact number, sure, but I'd rather that then less transparency on anon accounts.
TL;DR: I don't think this is a problem on this site, but always appreciate a good discussion!
@Maegi - that "what if" scenario is exactly something I'm afraid would happen. If someone worked so hard to create a pack, I feel like the PMs, at least, should be able to see the player count of their pack. Why should they have to wait for a "you're about to disband" warning to find out that they don't have enough players? That doesn't seem fair at all. If they knew that they're player base was dropping, they could... idk... get some characters to go out and try to recruit other characters or... something. At least there would be less of a chance of being possibly surprised with a "you don't have enough players" warning.
EDIT: what are the chances of this actually being a problem? Probably pretty low. Nevertheless, I still think it's unfair that even PMs cannot see their player count.
(April 07, 2019, 04:45 PM)Strand Wrote: [ -> ]@Maegi - that "what if" scenario is exactly something I'm afraid would happen. If someone worked so hard to create a pack, I feel like the PMs, at least, should be able to see the player count of their pack. Why should they have to wait for a "you're about to disband" warning to find out that they don't have enough players? That doesn't seem fair at all. If they knew that they're player base was dropping, they could... idk... get some characters to go out and try to recruit other characters or... something. At least there would be less of a chance of being possibly surprised with a "you don't have enough players" warning.
EDIT: what are the chances of this actually being a problem? Probably pretty low. Nevertheless, I still think it's unfair that even PMs cannot see their player count.
See, I get nervous when the pack is down to 8 or 9, so... But that's just me. I completely get where you're coming from; I just don't think it's a huge concern nor should it affect current norms of anonymity.
As an actual PM on the site - in two different packs - I don't see this as an issue at all. Why? Because a pack disbanding isn't the end of the world. If you don't have enough members/players and you're barely clinging on, maybe it's best that the pack disbands to allow for something else to take its place.
I believe the way that the rules are set up make things completely and entirely fair. I'd rather respect those who want to be private and anon instead of forcing something like this. When I've made anon characters, I made sure that I was keeping myself on the down-low. I didn't want to be found out until I was ready for it and I had my own reasons for that. I'd have been really irked if I was being unveiled because someone didn't think it was fair to their pack's number base... this is just a game.
Yes, a lot of work goes into pack creation. Lots of people labor over their ideas and spend hours and hours in an attempt to form their pack. That's part of the game. It's not just a risk for you. It's a risk for everyone. If you're afraid that your numbers would be shown inaccurately and you'll disband, maybe put your pack idea on hold until you can approach it as part of the game again. A break might be all you need. Not only that, but you have three whole days to pull in another member to save the pack if you get close to the closing point. You will be notified just like all of the other packs and you can take those three days to find someone else to fill the ranks, or let your pack disband.
TLDR: I think respecting people's right to be anon is way more important than trying to keep packs around longer. Let people feel safe to bring in characters they may not keep or that they don't want everyone to know about. If you feel as though your pack is getting close to slipping into a disband, then buck up and do the work to save it. The game is fluid - let it be. Let packs disband and new ones form. It's going to be way more interesting than clinging to stale things.
(April 07, 2019, 04:58 PM)Illidan Wrote: [ -> ]TLDR: I think respecting people's right to be anon is way more important than trying to keep packs around longer. Let people feel safe to bring in characters they may not keep or that they don't want everyone to know about. If you feel as though your pack is getting close to slipping into a disband, then buck up and do the work to save it. The game is fluid - let it be. Let packs disband and new ones form. It's going to be way more interesting than clinging to stale things.
I am a PM and I agree with this statement.
I can see where you are coming from for sure and honestly wish we could have something even from the admin side that would allow this!! However it isn't something I have had time time or idea to code yet. A lot of subjective things go into determining same vs not same player. Sometimes we need to look at ip, sometimes email, sometimes ooc name, and sometimes none of those match! People forget to change adopted account emails, use a separate one for some reason, or change specifically so that people don't know who it is. There's also as Lauren says the case of people who use ip spoofers to even hide their ip from the admins. I'm not sure why this is the case, but we don't prevent it! We just have to take into account that this can be a possible point of exploitation on things such as polls, pack numbers, and the like.
In other words, it's probably not even anything I can code for our use to make things easier, so probably won't ever be an option for PMs either <3
Okay, I retract my original statement now because I can see where you guys are coming from with anonymity. (I don't personally get it because I've never made an anon character, but that doesn't mean I think no one should be allowed to be anonymous).
Now I hate to be THAT person, but I have to ask: If it's hard even for the admins to sometimes know who is who, how is it fair to make pack creation/disbandment based on player numbers? If even the admins sometimes can't tell for sure, and regular members aren't allowed to know, why wouldn't the pack numbers be based on characters instead? And if there are people double-dipping then... oh well? At least the count would be 100% accurate.
(This is just me... asking a stupid question for the sake of asking it. I'm not trying to change the rules or argue with anyone or open a can of worms. Feel free to tell me to stfu lol.)
Part of that subjectivity is we only count when we are sure. We don't go about this as "these two might be the same people, we can't count them separate". We approach it from "these two might not be the same person, we will count them separate." If there is doubt, it isn't like we want packs to fall under!
That rule is in place to prevent players from introducing characters purely to bolster pack numbers and prevent disbandment. We want to encourage active and engaging packs to succeed and just because the community can't support a pack doesn't mean it is a bad concept, it just means it isn't right for the site right now and that's fine. Checking individual members is a good happy medium we've found in our attempt to prevent stale packs from continuing past the point when it is right for them to disband.
@Rosalyn - that makes sense. Thanks to everyone for taking part in this. I respect everyone's opinion and, like I said, I'm not trying to stir shit up or change the rules or anything! It was just something that's been on my mind recently! <3 I'll back out of this now, unless anyone else jumps in and says something.
(April 07, 2019, 05:13 PM)Strand Wrote: [ -> ]Now I hate to be THAT person, but I have to ask: If it's hard even for the admins to sometimes know who is who, how is it fair to make pack creation/disbandment based on player numbers? If even the admins sometimes can't tell for sure, and regular members aren't allowed to know, why wouldn't the pack numbers be based on characters instead? And if there are people double-dipping then... oh well? At least the count would be 100% accurate.
It's not hard at all. I think what Starr meant is that you have to be subjective on
some cases and a code and/or script wouldn't be capable of being subjective when there were inconsistencies. IE we could confirm pretty easily that Thorn & Indra are played by the same person, but script/code might have a hard time because the accounts have different emails, or OOC names. If separating by emails was how we coded it, the numbers still would likely be inconsistent because some players choose to register under different emails. Alternatively if you used IP, I think it would be hard to build in because so many people access WOLF from multiple platforms now.. their cells, their iPads, their laptops, their work computers, home computers, etc... Most people seem to have at least three unique IPs..
Regarding whether or not it is fair to make pack creation/disbandment based on player numbers, this is what the community voted for, at majority too.
I see where you're coming from but still believe protecting anonymity is important, and no one is entitled to knowing whether someone is anonymous save for CMs when it comes to CM things (polls, player counts in packs, etc). This hasn't been an issue so far with WOLF and I'd say it's one of the rare things that will continue to be a non-issue; most anonymous characters are flashes in the pan and/or are lone wolves before they are dropped. Very few become permanent characters and when they do the anonymity is usually dropped.
@Indra - I completely see your point(s). Thanks for weighing in/explaining stuff!