Stone Circle the air is dense as my back sticks to the leather

the sky was clear overhead as they passed back into the rolling lands of easthollow, the scent wrapping forth to embrace them like an old friend and smother some of the wild air that had slowly been trying to replace the hollow's presence upon their fur. although she'd enjoyed their exploring immensely, it felt good to be back, to be home. still felt a little odd to refer to the verdant lands with their proud stones standing sentinel as such a thing but it wasn't hard to imagine, and she was growing more certain that with time it'd be second nature. stretching leisurely in the sun's kiss, she cast a little grin to @West Tyree before straightening with a little yawn. "do you want to call your parents?" she'd finally murmur, assuming he'd like to let them know of their return. her smirk deepened as she added "and let them know that i am a fantastic tour guide and showed you some fabulous wonders of the world" 

yet although jest glittered within sharp eyes, there was a distant sheen to them too; especially as she turned away to regard the lands once more. as tranquil as ever at least, there was always the fear of leaving home that things would have changed for the worst before you returned. still, despite the weariness tugging at her bones; begging for respite, she shuffled from paw to paw restlessly. since visiting west's sister in her lovely pack on the other side of the mountains, she'd decided she was going to go see kavik. in fact, seeing him reunite with some of his family made her wonder how she'd even considered not visiting him over her own doubts that zephyr's words had sparked. she had only gotten papa back and she loved him, it seemed incredulous now that she'd thought about not letting him speak for himself. her heart thudded hard against her chest, honestly after everything, she'd rather see him again and fight than not get to be in his presence again. to hear his voice, see the spark of light in those eyes. a smaller smile pressed against her lips, in the end he was alive and that was all that mattered. so after speaking to whoever west called for and maybe catching a quick nap, she'd head for the borders of whitebark stream. alone.

PP permission given for Polaris, West Odds Polaris Evens. Rolled a d10 and got 5 West wins

The trip had been long and in some ways tiring, but every bit worth it. It felt good to stretch his legs past the safe bubble he knew as home and getting to do it with Polaris made every bit of it more exciting. It also felt good to be home though and as he was shot a smirk the boy could only return it with a grin. I'll call them, but first— the woodland male bumped shoulders with the dove at his side, before launching himself forwards towards the distant stones, Race ya to the stones! A laugh erupted from the boy as he charged forward without mercy. Perhaps it was unfair given his height and the headstart, but he'd never admit his advantage.

A white blur caught the corner of his eye as he started to near their destination, somehow the girl had managed to close some of the gap, but West refused to lose. With a final shove of his paws against the ground, West launched himself into the circle, skidding as he attempted to come to a stop. The weight behind his speedy, however, had other ideas as he tipped forward and rolled onto his back with a thump causing another laugh to escape the male. IIIIIIII win~ The woodland boy shifted to his feet and shook loose the debris that had decided to cling to his fur giving himself a moment to catch his breath before finally calling for @Valette and @Greyback

Valette lifted her head when she heard the howl. West! She knew those tones by heart. She rushed to the howl, which came from inside the territory. She hoped that Polaris was with him as well. She had liked the female and wondered if she had found her family. If she had, then Valette wondered if she would come back with West to Easthollow. The howl sounded cheery, so she was hopeful. Valette made her way to the stones and saw both of them. She grinned. Good! They looked so cute and happy together. They would make a lovely couple. West deserved a nice female like Polaris.

She trotted to them, greeting them with a woof (and yes, West with some more kisses and licks). Polaris she greeted with a dip of her head. "Good to see you both back,' she smiled. They looked happy... Her eyes darted between the two of them. "Tell me everything about the trip! Did you find anyone from your family?" she asked Polaris. She then looked at West. "I also want to hear your travel stories."

she arches a brow at the contact, sensing the mischief propelling the bump of their shoulders only to let out a gasp of indignation as he suddenly just took off. a few dumbfounded blinks before he yelled his little challenge and a growl rumbled forth as she gasped a "hey!" and launched after him. she couldn't resist the grin to tug at her lips as the air whipped giddily past her and the grass tickeld softly beneath the thud of her paws, harmonizing with the enraptured beat of her heart. she'd give herself a big A for effort but him and his damn long legs had an unfair headstart anyway so despite the screaming burn of her muscles; the boy's triumphant yell wrapped around her ears as she skidded to a stop with a hmph. yet it seems karma had decided to join in on their little game to some degree as he met the ground with an ungraceful roll and the scowl that had began to blossom dramatically across angular features was quick to shift into a little smirk as her own laugh floated forth to meet his. "the only price was losing your dignity" she'd snigger and would move to try shove him at his attempted stand, hoping surprise would work in her favour despite her much smaller size and send him thudding right back into the grass' embrace. 

it was only when a merry woof sounded behind her would polaris tear bright eyes from west to spot the familiar form of valette making her way towards them after west had finally managed to make his call. she'd offer a politer smile at her greeting, leaning back on her haunches now that any threats of west making an attack on her seemed to be eliminated. especially as valette began showering him in kisses, resulting in a broadened smile from polaris as she waggled her brows, the tease clear as day in that mismatched gaze. when the matriarch focused back on her, she'd dip her own head back and roll her shoulders at the expected questions to be posed before them. casting a side look to west, she'd shrug; smile weaker but staying put stubbornly. "yes i came across one of my siblings, zephyr, he told me everything i needed to know about my family. they're all alive, scattered but, alive" she didn't launch into the details about not visiting her papa, seeing no real need to and preferring not to admit something she already found so shameful. especially because she was planning on departing to visit him in just a few hours. 

not really much else to say on that front so she looked expectantly to west, waiting for him to admit that she'd brought him on the best trip ever.

The woodland boy could only roll his eyes at Polaris' statement. To him, his dignity was still high, even when she bumped him causing the boy to stumble as he stood. It wouldn't take long for his mother to arrive though and with the shower of kisses, he could feel his face flush as he shot an embarrassed glance to the dove. He was happy to see his mom again, but he couldn't help but feel she was trying to smother him as if he was a pup. West returned a few of the kisses, but as soon as her motives were clear he'd try backing away with a hushed complaint, Mom please—

He waited as the attention finally turned off him doing his best to ignore Polaris' teasing until she stepped in and quickly filled in his mother of their findings. She didn't bring up Whitebark Stream so he figured it was probably best to void that info as well.  When the dove finished West simply nodded before perking up again, We traveled all over! We even went over the mountains to Kaistleoki and saw Ira! Everything was so different past their hollow where was he even supposed to start?

Sorry all the other threads drained me haha. <3

Valette smiled at Polaris when she told the news. It was wonderful news that she found her family! "That is so good to hear that they are alive,' she returned to the female. She was unaware that there was more at hand, but perhaps that was for the better. She stepped away from West, looking at him apologetically. She eyed 'sorry' at him, sometimes she kind of forgot that he was her big son and that such things embarrassed him. She didn't mean to, she just wanted to show him that she loved him.

"That sounds so good, West!," she grinned. "Do you remember any landmarks you've seen? Maybe I remember them from my days of traveling," she commented. Valette had been quite the traveler when she was younger. One might not realize that now, but the female had stopped after getting her first litter and becoming the sole leader of Easthollow.

she blinked gratefully to the cordial woman, shoulder's sagging a little with pressing weariness despite the lingering smile placed firmly upon her lips. the motherly aura valette gave off was sometimes both like a caress and a bite at the same time, offering her warm safety and care and yet a stark reminder that her own family lay scattered on the breeze and that she was still essentially an outsider to this tightly knit group. blinking hastily, she looked back to west and felt her heart lift from it's moment of melancholy at the joy to dance from the swipe of his tongue. her smile deepened, a much more fervent supporter of the joy it indicated as nitid eyes prowled back to the matriarch at the query she posed. 

it reminded her to seek her advice and wisdom on the land she'd travelled to gain her the mastery she'd told her about that day within the stone's watchful gaze. tipping her head curiously she murmured "we followed a passage through the mountain that seemed well used. it brought us safely through the rock's bordering a sheltered vale that was occupied by a pack and finally back down into the flatlands where we located west's sister's pack, the one with the lush lands surrounding their river" her gaze had taken on an ardent gleam as she recalled the journey and everything that they'd witnessed. looking back to west she tilted her head and asked "i think the mountain's were really the most significant thing? before that we went north, all very beautiful with some impressive forests but all quite similar to what is around here anyway..." but she left the sentence open as she trailed off, blinking to her earthen companion lest she'd forgotten something. after all, things that she was well used to might still be new and exciting for him considering it had been his first trip outside of the territory.

it left her feeling a little guilty that she was set to leave once more but she could not bring herself to voice such a fact aloud, it wasn't like she'd be gone long anyway.

His mother pulled away, a look given in place of an unspoken apology. Perhaps if they had been alone the boy would have let her have her way, but not now. Not with Polaris only a few feet away. It wasn't until the Matriarch asked about landmarks that he paused. The boy had seen so much in the days of travel, but he never thought to keep in mind specific landmarks. Thankfully Polaris was quick to jump in, the path they traveled familiar to the young explorer. Her description was enough to give him some time to think over his own answer before the reigns were handed back to the woodland boy. Ah— yeah the mountains were super cool! A lot colder than I expected, and wayyyy bigger up close, but you could see everything from up there!

What else— something specific Oh, there was also a really big river, like, way bigger than the streams we have, and some wide plains past the mountains. There were some bison there too, but our herds are larger. Of course, his mind had gone straight to food, but seeing new and old prey was a discovery of its own too. For some reason a lot of the Kaistleoki wolves hunt these huge fish instead of the bison. A lot of the trees looked the same over there, but it was pretty. Sometimes the light from the river reflected on the trees.

Valette was so pleased to hear about all their adventures and landmarks they had seen. She nodded at them and listened calmly to both of them. She nodded and took in their words. "How wonderful," she smiled, though it was kind of a secretive smile. "You two talk about a mountain and passage. What makes this mountain special? Those are landmarks you want to watch for. How will you get to that vale the next time?," she asked, she knew that vale and was glad that it was still there. Now there was even a pack, that was interesting since that would add extra travel time to go around borders.

"Very good to take in the fauna, West," she complimented. "Landmarks can help but fauna can help you find your way too. Plus, if you know what lives in the area it can ben helpful to guide your own path," she added. "Ira had lots of Easthollow visitors then," she chuckled. Arlette had also been there before she returned with Kaito. She rather not think about those right now, she was still salty. "It all sounds like you had your eyes open and at least found your way home, that is most important,' she nodded. 'Good job. Plus it is nice insight for me that there is a pack in the Vale."

ebullience decorated the smile pressed upon her lips as she watched west exclaim their finds to his mother, the swish of her feathery tail consistent as it wagged lazily behind her. amusement sparked within the lustre of her look at his information about all the different prey situations, intrigued as to how such a thing had failed to capture her attention in the slightest. but she was immediately appreciative of his comment about the river reflecting her gleam upon the trees, always pleased to see anyone perceptive of the little beauties the world presented to them each day. still grinning, her gaze would only shift from her travelling companion when valette spoke up, eagerly attentive at her query. her nose would proceed to scrunch up in concentration, brows furrowed with determination to impress the master ranger. 'the mountain i believed to have crushed my family' was surely enough of a landmark for her to remember but that was not thinking with the mind of a scout, she had to be able to gather and present the information in ways that would help others. "we went for that peak, the huge one you can kind of see from here. so tall that the top is always dusted in snow even in the height of summer! of course we didn't even attempt to go near the top, we wandered around its slopes to the other side uh..." thinking of the comment on fauna she supplied "not a lot of animals there but there was these ones with cool curling horns! like fuzzy, stout deer and um, then we walked along this ridge that overlooks the vale. it's a lot scarier than it looks because its got all these crazy little peaks as if the whole thing is spiky but inbetween them there's actually lots of nooks full of verdant life and little streams" 

her gaze was simply ecstatic at her breathless finish, enjoying being able to recall and supply the information of their travels almost as much as she enjoyed partaking in them. "she was very nice, ira, her pack made me quite curious to try this fish..." she arched a brow to west, curious as to whether he had any such desires. she'd found the glint of their scales in the sun kissed waters mesmerizing and had felt a stronger draw to them than she ever had to gently staring deer. stretching her tired muscles out, her chin remained tipped in pleasure at the praise, unable to resist basking in it a little.

The woodland boy was beaming at his mother's words, he had feared that he might look silly for not taking in some important information as he had never traveled before, but it seemed that even prey could be important to keep in mind. At least he liked to believe so. West was unaware that Arlette had also made a trip over during her travels, but he wouldn't question Valette's comment about Easthollow visitors.

West let Polaris fill in the info of the peaks, she knew them better than he even if it was for poor reasoning. She was the one that had guided them so it was only natural that she new the landmarks his mother was searching for. Based on Valette's reaction it seemed that the pack they passed by might have been new. Did that happen often? It was a bit far to visit casually, but maybe if he was ever in the area again he could ask. Oh yeah—! How could he have forgotten the weird creatures? They were almost like a mix of the bison and deer, but they looked a lot more like a deer and smaller than both. Maybe the bison wasn't the best example, but they also had more similar horns than a buck.

The conversation turned back to Kaistleoki and he too wondered what the fish were like. He had never really bothered trying to hunt the ones around here since any that did show in the river were very small. It seemed like a major food source for the river wolves though, so it must be good? However, West was content with the deer and bison of the valley. Me too, but they kinda stink. He chuckled thinking back to the smell.

Valette listened to their story and had to smile at all the wonderful things they had seen. It reminded her of when she was traveling a lot. She had been amazed at what she all had seen. The female smiled at the two of them. "Bighorn sheep?," she asked curiously as the two spoke of this deer, but smaller and with horns like a bison. It was a good guess since she had seen those animals as well. 'They had them when I was still living at Silvertip Mountain," she explained. West probably didn't know a lot about her life before Easthollow. None of her children ever bothered to ask her, she didn't blame them. Why ask such things about your mother.

'It sounds like you two had a good learning experience," she smiled at the two of them. "By the way you are telling it, it sounds all very familiar still. It is good to have eyes out there and see what is going on," she smiled. Then they started about fish and Valette had to chuckle. She knew some wolves ate fish, it wasn't her preference, not really. "I can imagine with a river by their territory. Not really my cup of tea. But you two can check if the stream or Duck lake as some fish in it. Have you learned how to catch them?," she wondered.

she nods enthusiastically alongside west's added touches of describing the curious animals roaming the treacherous slopes as if they were simply strolling along the flatlands. how they'd mastered it she did not know, in fact it was rather infuriating above all else to see these lumbering creatures with hooves maneuver the lands with much more ease than their pawed comrades. surely they were more prone to slip? but no, they'd seemed so at ease that she'd bet they could do it with their eyes closed and wolves with even claws to help with stability looked so graceless in comparison! she frowns, dumbfounded. 

blinking, she glances back to valette at her suggestion, intrigue deepening as she followed up with how she could know such a thing. "yes that definitely suits them! bighorn sheep...so i guess that means they are a type of sheep then, that makes much more sense i knew they couldn't be a type of deer" her head tilts as she adds without a lack fervour "that's cool you lived on a mountain" it does make her wonder a tad ruefully where her own parents had visited and lived before settling at swiftcurrent creek, it was all too easy to forget the lives they would've lived before their kids were so much as a thought. and her mind continues forth to childishly add that papa's whole 'new and improved family' might grow up not even knowing of the creek. 

a good humoured roll of her eyes as she trills "don't judge a poor fish on its smell! maybe they can't help it, i don't think they smell that bad" now that it was in her head, she was quite determined to succeed in fish hunting, especially if it wasn't considered easy. it might be her redeeming moment considering how much of a failure she was at hunting otherwise. "no i haven't but now i'm quite determined to, watch me become the best fish hunter ever" she grins over to west at that, eyes fever bright with the challenge, it would, after all be much more fun becoming the best fish catcher ever if she had an opponent to beat.

Bighorn sheep? So they had a name after all, although the woodland boy had never come across any kind of sheep before. That meant there were littlehorn sheep too right? Wait— You lived on a mountain? Hadn't his family been here like...always? How could she just skip over that like it was nothing? I thought we were from here? What do you mean you lived elsewhere? Did Easthollow move? Also weren't all his ancestors buried at the stones?

West had the vague idea that his mother had traveled a lot based on some of her stories, but she never mentioned anything about other packs. The land really didn't change though did it? Polaris had almost been wiped off the earth from that mountain, but all the landmarks seemed to match some map in his mother's mind. Maybe it was the earth's way of leaving a permanent map so no one gets lost. If you can read the earth you can read the way or...something like that yeah? Leta liked to talk about the stars a lot and they didn't change so it was probably the same here on the ground.

He was surprised to hear that Polaris wanted to fish and the look on his face would show it. Maybe they could both fish, it could be fun and he was never one to back down from a challenge. Hah! Sure you will~ The girl who can't take down a bird will be the master fisher. Maybe you can learn something from the real master. Oh, now he had to beat her even though out of the three present West was definitely no master, that went to Valette.

Duck lake... he hadn't heard of it before now, but maybe it was the one they passed. It would be the spot, their river didn't have fish like in Kaistleoki. I mean— I never tried, but I saw some wolves in Ira's pack just scoop 'em. Can't be that hard? It was unfortunate he had been unaware of the actual technique behind their actions, he might end up biting himself in the ass with his declaration.

Valette nodded at Polaris. They could look a bit like deer, so she didn't blame her for thinking that at least. The Matriarch smiled because it did her well to have such young minds explore the nature around them and trying to see if species were related. It amused her. Her face turned to West when he was baffled by the fact that she lived on a mountain. She smiled and nodded. "I was born in Bearclaw Valley, next door. When Kove, your grandpa, and my mother split, I went with my mother. She went to Phoenix Maplewood, north of here. I was only 7 months when she died because of a cougar attack. I was so upset with the world and was very bitter that I lost everyone in my little family. Your aunt Nanook left me as well after our mom died. She was probably shocked," she explained.

She cleared her throat. "Anyhow, I ran into an acquaintance of my mother, Steady. You might remember that name," she smiled, as she had told anyone about him really. "He offered me to live as his pack, Silvertip Mountain. So there I went. He taught me how to deal with loss, or maybe even made me forget a bit about that loss. I worked hard for that pack, fiercely loyal to Steady not only because he was my leader," she admitted with a bit of a knowing grin. "I was a scout for Silvertip and when Steady wanted to relocate I went to scout a home for the new Silvertip Mountain. I could help but travel back to my place of birth, and explore the area around it. That is how I found the Stone Circle and the territory around it. I convinced Steady that this was the perfect place for a pack. Very different than what we had, of course, but he believed me and moved his pack to the Stone Circle." Valette smiled fondly at the memory. It was such a long time ago. She was so young and it had been such a crazy time.

Valette continued. "But having these flatlands as our new home, we couldn't name ourselves Silvertip Mountain. Since we crossed a mountain range to get here, and it was east of our last home the name was decided quite quickly, Easthollow. After we moved here, Steady made me his beta as a reward for my hard work. I think I was around your age, West, when I became Beta and felt completely clueless. Well, you know the rest. Steady became my mate but then died soon after that as well. Then I just tried leading Easthollow as best as I could," she wrapped up the story. She just gave a brief overview and realized that she hadn't really gone into that much detail of her life on the mountain. "Those mountains gave me my stamina and taught me how to hunt," she hummed.

The two were very cute together. Valette watched them fondly as they bantered. She hoped she had taught West enough manners to charm the girl. Though, boys will be boys. West was soon being pretty cocky about his fishing skills. Valette was rather amused by it. "I wouldn't say that so confidently," she laughed, and looked between the two. "I hope you two realize that water distorts your vision. So you might see a fish at a certain location but it actually means it is just a smidge off. With them being quick as well, you should be lucky if you come close to catching one," she smiled. "I never liked fishing. I like the chase."

a solicitous frown as valette led them through her past, heart aching with pained understanding at enduring such a terrible thing. it was disorientating to try and imagine valette as a pup, in some ways the woman appeared as eternal as the standing stones she venerated so wholly, but she too had wept and given in to that double edged sword of hissing bitterness. however it was oddly comforting, to know that valette had managed to endure something so great and yet still grow to be the influential, eloquent woman that stood before them today. lips do tilt back up into a clement smile when the cordial matriarch pushed forth to speak of steady, she did remember that one! "the father stone" she'd breathe softly, gaze flicking over to where the sentries stood in their brazen glory; the one she spoke of easy to pinpoint due to its magnificent size. 

awe touched eyes wander back to the speaker, tail wagging a little as she found herself as victim as ever to the thrill at imagining getting to be the one that had located the home for your pack. and such a wonderful one at that! and she'd done all that at such a young age, it made polaris hungry; desperate to make something of herself so that she too would have a tale to gift with pride to listening ears. "that's so amazing" she'd exhale at the story's conclusion, rocking back and forth on small paws with pent up excitement from the images her mind had drawn up of the young earthen woman. had it not been for stirring pride, she would surely have gushed some cheesy exclamations of the woman being some sort of a role model to her but she kept ahold of her tongue, although the gossamer gleam adorning the look she cast upon the matriarch really spoke for itself. but she did let herself announce with a beam "i think you've done an amazing job valette! i still can't believe it was you that found this place, that is so cool." 

and much better than living in the mountains in her opinion, she'd enjoyed visiting them with west for sure. their rugged, brazen beauty like nothing else and indeed there was a euphoric thrill to dancing up there with the sky itself but...they just didn't scream 'home' to her, she could not imagine being able to ignore the charge of such whimsical air and feel content and 'homely'. but then she'd never tried living up there, maybe finding your own little crook within the clutch of those rugged claws made it all the better. "i'm sorry about your family though" she'd quickly blurt, eyes still cast towards the distant peaks "that must've been really hard"

ears would twist then at west's spiel, jaw dropping in mock indignation as she puffed her chest and haughtily declared "excuse me i choose not to hunt birds thank you very much! and believe me, i think you'll find fishing to be quite different from hunting deer mister" a wicked grin as she went on to trill "but go ahead and doubt me cocky boy, it'll make it all the more fun seeing your shock when i leave you in the dust" not a chance was she letting him beat her now, she hoped her paws were ready to endure a lot of being wet beause hell she'd practice night and day rather than prove him right. she'd shrug then, looking back to valette; in her opinion it looked easier than normal hunting but she could be far off with that. "huh, that's cool" she'd muse, she hadn't really noticed that water distorted your vision like that. she'd obviously noticed it wasn't the same, that things appeared murkier but she'd never realised quite how much of an affect its rippling surface had. the chase, polaris seemed to lack that enjoyment built into most wolves; perhaps due to conflicted morals whispering their overpowering clamour whenever she tried to partake. it didn't bother her much though, the only issue being the lack of independence it gave her but if she mastered fishing then that'd be sorted! "i am determined" she decided "if the kaistleoki wolves can do it then so will i"

bleh sorry for the wait maybe its time to wrap up? Old thread haha this can probably be west's last post unless someone says something that would stop him or outright stops him

West could only sit and listen as Valette shared her stories. So many names and places were unfamiliar, and to think those he knew were so deeply connected. He had heard of Steady, but it never really set in that his mom had been with someone else until now. To him, Greyback had always been around. A mountain though...the woodland boy wasn't sure how he'd feel about living so high up, it definitely had benefits but there were some scary consequences should anything go wrong.

Valette did found this place though, at least in spirit and name. To think she had become a beta at his age, what the hell would he do as a beta? As much as he claimed to be an adult it was things like this that he still felt very much like a kid. I mean, he would be a pretty cool beta, but running a pack seems a bit messy. If the Alpha is good though then maybe that's not really a concern since he wouldn't be alone. Still, the woodland boy found himself wordless instead letting Polaris take over with her own thoughts while a simple Wow... slipped by himself.

Though at Polaris' uproar there was no hiding the shit-eating grin that spread across the boy's maw. Oh yes, and choosing not to practice hunting at all will definitely help you catch a fish. It's nice that you have dreams though~ While he appreciated the advice from his mother, West couldn't help but shoot her a look as if saying "just let me have this". Bragging only works when no one calls you out on your BS after all. West raised a leg to scratch at the back of his ear as he spoke up again, You better practice then! I wouldn't want to completely destroy you~. It's way less fun when there's no competition. Speaking of— I think I'm going to go do that now. Lowering his leg, the woodland boy shifted back to his feet, nevermind his sore pads from all the traveling, now he had to prove himself and the only way he could do that is if he was confident he could even grab the damn things.

Yeah we can wrap this up!!

Valette chuckled at both their responses. Of course, they wouldn't have known about her life before all of this. She watched their friendly banter and briefly wondered if something was growing between them. She raised her brows but didn't comment on it. She didn't want to embarrass her son. She had done that quite frequently already. The female smiled at them. "Well, whoever brings me the first fish I declare the winner," she commented with a grin. "Good to know that you are home. I will leave you two to settle and rest after your trip." With that Valette let them be. Perhaps she could tell West more about the life she led and the lessons she learned from it. If he was interested at least.

@Polaris feel free to archive or also post once more