What happens if someone claims the territory right next to mine?

I have a question regarding the thing with new pack's being able to claim territories directly beside already existing packs...are Alpha(s)/pack wolves in general still allowed to be territorial about the territories around their pack's claimed lands?

@Peregrine @Magpie feel free to correct me if I'm way off the mark here.

@Tyrr We're probably going to discourage it to be fair regarding overlaps. It depends largely on the size of the pack. A full pack might be a little more aggressive in defending their buffer zone, whereas a smaller pack wouldn't even be there. The new territory claims are meant to emulate the way wolf packs work in the wild. Wolves have a "heart" that they spend most of their time in and defend fiercely, but the outer reaches of their territory are transient. On top of that, wolf packs in Yellowstone National Park actually have overlapping territories. Typically, wolf packs with overlapping outer boundaries actually avoid that area completely to minimize conflict, and if they do meet in the overlap, then there are usually disputes over food... but one pack doesn't invade the other pack's "heart" to try to drive them out or anything.

We haven't completely set out how territory claims work with the new system, this is all just how I understand it. For now, treat the inner claim as the "true" claim that your character is territorial about, and the outer claim as the buffer zone or "surrounding neutralish grounds". A wolf in the buffer zone may be treated stiffly or tensely by the pack, but probably not chased or directly threatened if they aren't being threatening themselves. Outside their claim, a wolf pack of 15 doesn't actually have the numbers to be territorial, so for example SB couldn't really show territoriality over Gyrfalcon's Keep or Wheeling Gull Isle, because it's way outside their claim. In order to dispute a pack's claim in those areas, SB would need to leave their lands completely undefended, and wolves just don't ever do that.

In summary: if two packs' outer zones overlap, wolves from the larger pack may be aggressive toward wolves from the opposing pack in the overlap but otherwise don't have the numbers to be territorial of entire adjacent territories, so a wolf from OS can't march into a pack territory in NWF, for example, and tell them to get lost because the inner claim, or true claim, is in a whole other area (and technically is miles away).

I'm having kind of a hard time with this, if only because our wolves are so humanized. Fox has done several non-realistic wolf things, and most characters on this board have. A lot of what was said in the above post is based on a character's personality. I know that Fox won't stop being territorial just because a new rule is put in place. That would be changing her personality.

a wolf from OS can't march into a pack territory in NWF, for example, and tell them to get lost because the inner claim, or true claim, is in a whole other area (and technically is miles away).

I guess this is a good example. I feel like the above scenario should definitely be allowed happen. It doesn't mean it would have any merit or that the OS wolf wouldn't be eaten for trespassing, but he/she could still do that if they wanted. Just want to make sure that part of it isn't changing.

I've edited this post a few times for clarity, please reread for... well, clarity!

I'm going to let @Magpie or @Peregrine answer that because all I have atm is my opinion, which I will state but probably isn't what you want to hear. In the past we allowed packs to be territorial of surrounding territories because we specifically disallowed side by side packs.

Now, we want packs to be able to exist side-by-side, which is why we altered the way pack territories work. In my opinion, altering the way territories work and how they can be claimed necessitates a change in character thinking--or a level of cooperation that, yes, maybe changes things a bit for your character, but are sort of needed for a new system to work--but that's just an opinion. My personal belief is that a wolf, anthropomorphized or not, doesn't have the time or energy to be so concerned.

I can care if my neighbour walks on my lawn, but to care what they do on their lawn, even though they're right next to me, is unreasonable. I view pack territories the same way but that is my personal view. At the end of the day, we can't force anyone to do anything, but imo we didn't change territory claims so packs could exist side by side just for characters to continue acting like they have claiming rights over every territory within 100 miles, because then there was no point to changing it at all.

However, this is all opinion. If one of the other CMs has a better answer, then I defer to them.

I'm having kind of a hard time with this, if only because our wolves are so humanized. Fox has done several non-realistic wolf things, and most characters on this board have. A lot of what was said in the above post is based on a character's personality. I know that Fox won't stop being territorial just because a new rule is put in place. That would be changing her personality.

a wolf from OS can't march into a pack territory in NWF, for example, and tell them to get lost because the inner claim, or true claim, is in a whole other area (and technically is miles away).

I guess this is a good example. I feel like the above scenario should definitely be allowed happen. It doesn't mean it would have any merit or that the OS wolf wouldn't be eaten for trespassing, but he/she could still do that if they wanted. Just want to make sure that part of it isn't changing.

i think what chelsie is trying to point out is that in the wild, wolf packs have territories that are contiguous with other packs and these territories are often avoided by the pack wolves. they can't waste their energies defending these overlapping territories because they need to expend it hunting, marking, and preserving their rendezvous sit/cache. it's probably okay to anthropomorphize but it would be unrealistic for fox to be expending so much time vigorously defending (or being aggressively territorial of) territories that are not close to the rendezvous.

I do want to say I'm not saying a pack can't choose to harass another nearby pack if they're feeling crowded, but they shouldn't be territorial outside their pack. What I am saying is that OS wolves couldn't go attacking NWF wolves for being "on their buffer zone turf" in the sense that they have been now, because in reality OS' true pack claim is the heart of their territory. They can harass them for other reasons but can't claim ownership over an adjacent area.

If I purchase a plot of land, I could tell someone building next to me that their 8 ft. fence is encroaching on my vision for my land (or in this case an adjacent pack is encroaching on the prey population or something like that), but I can't tell him to screw off because he's on my land... because he isn't. I can't tear his fence down because it's technically on his land, not mine. I could paint it an unfavourable colour on my side or throw darts at it on my side, though, because it is adjacent to my land, i.e. in my buffer zone. However, it wouldn't make sense for me to go paint his front door a different colour, or for a wolf pack to have disputes outside an overlap zone with another wolf pack, because it has nothing to do with the issue.

I feel I'm not articulating well what I'm thinking so, if no one else answers it better, I'll come back to this later with revised thoughts. I get your concern, but I feel things will inevitably have to be adjusted somewhat for this to work properly. That's just me.